Ted Niceley: Hi Michael, and welcome to PastryPros.com!
It’s definitely a pleasure for me, Ted! You guys are doing great job with this site.
TN: I hate to do this to you but, please, can you tell us how you got into cuisine in general and what led you to your first gig?
I’m what you might call an “accidental” chef- actually, I think there are a lot of us! How far back do we need to go?
I think even at an early age, I enjoyed what little cooking I did (we’re just talking the random batch of pancakes or cookies) because I sensed the feeling of accomplishment, of getting your hands dirty, of producing something greater than the sum of its parts. It was merely a bonus that others could take part in the enjoyment of those results- I mean, really, don’t most of learn to cook out of our own hunger?!
But I didn’t grow up in a “gastronomic” environment by any stretch of the imagination! Any foray into “exotic” food wouldn’t happen until, as a young, politically inclined punk, I would dive headfirst into vegetarianism (eventually I would take it to the next level and become a vegan for a couple of years). In that situation, in order to eat well, you have to do a lot of your own cooking. During that period I began to look toward the veg-friendly cuisines of the world: Asian, Indian, Middle Eastern. So that’s where a good deal of the interest and curiosity came from.
Taking a break from art school, as well as drifting away from being a vegetarian, I did some traveling, spending time in a number of different places. Upon my return to Detroit, I fell back into my old social network. A roommate of mine had a brother who was running a pastry shop/catering business, which at the time sounded a bit more interesting than going back to school. I did a lot of the grunt prep work but eventually moved on to bread. That’s what made something in my head click.
I ended up creating my own shift: 6pm until “whenever”, which usually meant 12-16 hour days. Long story short, by the end of that era (mid 1990s), I had a fairly broad,-but not so deep- exposure to both pastry and savory cooking
TN:What would you say were the most developmental aspects of that gig?
From that initial experience, I found out just how much of a work ethic I have, first and foremost. And that I could study and research and experiment in my own vacuum and turn out something slightly better than “edible”! But with that came a certain inflated belief in my own skills, that I had learned all the fundamentals and could therefore do anything. I soon realized that I had barely scratched the surface, and hence the welcome revelation that, in this profession, you never, ever stop learning.
And at this point, it still wasn’t really a “profession” in my mind, but more of a compulsion. I really wanted the experience of a real restaurant, but I also knew that I didn’t want to get lost in a big place, or waste time with the mediocrity so prevalent among Detroit’s dining options. The next stroke of luck in my career would be to land a spot in the tiny kitchen of Emily’s, owned by chef Rick Halberg. It was exactly what I thought I needed: a small restaurant/staff, a reverence for food, and a laboratory-like environment that I knew I could develop in.
While there I worked my way up the food chain, from pantry guy to sous chef, somewhere along the way creating a pastry chef position where none had existed. And it was there that I began following the food ‘scene’ and paying serious attention to what was going on in the world at large. Remember, it was around this time that the whole celebrity chef thing was hitting a new level. The gastronomic universe suddenly seemed to get smaller due to the increasing speed of information (i.e. the internet). The burst of creativity was also exciting; I remember those very first mentions of Ferran and Albert Adria back in the late nineties, as well as the faint rumblings of something called Molecular Gastronomy. Perhaps everyone goes through an early period of wonderment, regardless of what is happening at the time, but it sure felt like there was a creative explosion underway. That time and that environment were indeed quite a catapult into what I had by then, finally, considered my career.
TN:After that you heard about a pastry chef opening at Tribute?
And went for it?
Sort of. Tribute’s opening was a pretty big deal for the Detroit scene: they spent a lot of money, they brought in an out-of-town chef, the food was at a level never seen around town, and it would be the only restaurant to get any real national exposure. So any ambitious cook would jump at the chance to get into that kitchen.
I wasn’t seeking a pastry job. Takashi Yagihashi, the Japanese chef lured from Chicago, arrived with his whole management team in tow, pastry chef included (the awesome Tanya Fallon). I was leaning heavily toward the savory end of the curve, so a line cook spot was what I was after, though during my first few months at Tribute I remained the ‘stealth’ pastry chef at Emily’s.
I literally threw myself into the fire with this move. Up to that point, I had found passion and creativity, but with Takashi it was all about technique. And discipline. If perfection had previously been merely a goal, in Tribute’s kitchen it was compulsory. Refinement was now my mantra. I continued to push, and probably learned as much in that yearlong stint as I had in the previous three or four combined. And operating at that level introduced a whole new culture of cooking; it was now a philosophy, a state of mind, a way of life. Cuisine or Death.
I didn’t figure out why until much later, but pastry kept calling me. Sure, there was a little jealousy of Tanya, the pastry chef, and all of her bright shiny equipment. But looking back, I think I always coveted the autonomy of the pastry chef. I ended up leaving the line cook job for a return to Emily’s and what would be my ‘golden age’ there. And sadly, that restaurant recently closed after a twelve year run.
But when I heard that Tanya was leaving Tribute, well, of course I put my hat in the ring for that one. The familiarity helped, but I’d also like to think that Takashi and I had clicked on a personal level, and that my tasting/audition reflected his food; having been a cook there was certainly an advantage on that end. And there I stayed for five years.
TN: Again, what were the most developmental aspects of being at Tribute?
To me a big influence would be tasting menus.
Was Executive Chef Takashi Yagihashi a big influence on your dessert cuisine?
Those five years were spent really honing my technique and further refining in terms of taste, texture, and presentation. Really, that was my first ‘real’, full time pastry chef job, so I suddenly had much more time and the resources to explore new ideas. Management, too, was a new phenomenon when I had started, and while there was an evolution for sure- there was a period when I had been referred to as the ‘cake nazi’- I think I left that experience with a lot of confidence and fairly good skills. Getting people to buy into your vision and to work toward it is perhaps the most important aspect of this profession. Ultimately, Tribute was where I found, for lack of a better word, my voice or style. And on top of that, due to some huge support from other chefs and from the attention given to the restaurant, I started to gain some semblance of identity to the world at large.
The thing I loved the most about the various tasting menus, was the freedom for spontaneity that I had. There was a sort of fearless creative energy present for a few years in our corner of the kitchen and carte blanche to do whatever it took to carry the guests to the next level. Working within the vocabulary of multi-course desserts, my dishes became smaller, tighter, and more focused. Because so much of our output consisted of one-offs, or simply never saw a printed menu, my only regret is not having properly documented a lot of that stuff!
I still maintain a great friendship with Takashi; his influence will always be impossible to quantify. His trust and encouragement were hugely important. When I hear these stories from pastry chefs who don’t get along with their chefs, I’m mystified, because I’ve luckily always found that mutual respect. Overall, the crucial aspect of that relationship was that I understood what he was doing, and in turn worked toward a perfect transition for the desserts that followed. And all egos aside, that should the primary goal of all restaurant pastry chefs.
And of no small importance, I happened to have met my wife at Tribute!
TN: When we first met, it was around the time of the Spanish Pastry Explosion/Pastry Explosion in general. Did the tasting menu format of those restaurants influence you?
Yeah, by about 2002, it felt like there was this massive swirl of information and through sources like eGullet.com, where we stumbled upon each other, there was this amazing exchange of ideas. It’s one thing to sit at home with a book or magazine, in a vacuum of sorts, and quite another to process that information with a group of people with different perspectives.
As moderators, we had attempted to say, “Alright, let’s create this little basket, and if you see/hear/read something interesting, throw it in there and let’s talk about it.” With chefs like Adria, Balaguer, Butron, Conticini, Sam Mason, and several others, there was plenty to talk about. The work they were (and still are!) doing, and the discussion about it not only addressed technique, but also ingredients, chemistry, concepts, and sometimes even philosophy. It’s still an exciting time to be a pastry chef!
It’s hard to say what I took away from that initial ‘explosion’ that you refer to. Surely techniques and ideas influenced me, but honestly, and perhaps ironically, the most valuable thing I learned is the importance of knowing when to pull back and exercise restraint. With freedom and expanded options, I think there is a danger in getting a little too caught up in it. This is, in a sense, my current feeling on the relatively recent prevalence of ‘chemicals’, hydrocolloids, and the like. I’m no culinary Luddite; I have a lot of these ingredients on hand and I do my best to keep up with all of the ‘new’ stuff. But my enthusiasm for it is tempered somewhat as there are already plenty of things to keep me busy!
TN: You were also able to dine in Europe a good bit, Pierre Gagnaire and Arpege, to name a few.
Can you tell us some of the dessert courses you had there that blew you away?
Unfortunately, my European travel is rather limited to France, though I’ve been lucky enough to have visited a half dozen times over the last ten years.
Through my experiences at Gagnaire and Arpege (4 meals at each), I can trace, in a way, my own evolution, and if not two distinct but sometimes opposite influences. Gagnaire has always been an idol of sorts; I greatly admire his excitement, thought process and aesthetic, even if some of his dishes resemble barely controlled chaos. Alain Passard at Arpege represents a more minimal approach that I think I’ve come to increasingly align myself with, especially since working with Eric Ripert. I also experienced Ducasse and appreciated his emphasis on product and technical perfection at his initial Parisian restaurant.
On desserts specifically, a significant influence was Gagnaire’s ‘Grand Dessert’, which consisted of up to six or seven courses (often served in flights of two) of mostly fruit based desserts, the delicacy of which blew me away! After my first visit I immediately began thinking in terms of smaller desserts and progressions of flavors, implementing them into my menus alongside more conventional ‘a la carte’ options.
Philippe Conticini has always been another big deal in my world. His desserts at Petrossian (he was also the executive chef, by the way) really liberated presentation and the forms in which dessert had appeared before. I credit him with the onslaught of the shot glass-based desserts that has popped up everywhere over the years! He also pioneered pairings of beverages- favoring tableside infusions and tisanes over sweet wines- with his desserts.
I sampled heavily at Conticini’s revival of Peltier, and the experience, along with Pierre Hermé’s long awaited opening, made me seriously rethink the potential of retail shops. At the time, I was under the opinion that restaurant pastry was the only place to be. And since that time, the bar has certainly been raised. Japan, in particular, is very exciting in that regard!
It’s been two years since my last visit, and I’m woefully behind and out of the loop on what’s happening there now, which I think is also a symptom of being in New York’s insular environment. Aoki was hot when I was there last; I think the exchange between France and Japan is very interesting.
And it goes without saying that I’m long overdue for a trip to Spain!
TN: How many people are on your team now at Le Bernardin?
At the moment I have a team of seven split between two shifts, which includes pastry chef de cuisine Jose Almonte and sous chef Ricardo Guaman. At any given moment, we also have an extern or two, plus stages.
TN: Are you using a PacoJet or Turbine type of ice cream machines or both?
Apart from a couple of our consulting projects which use them exclusively, I haven’t worked on a Pacojet regularly since Tribute. While I like the expanded options it offers, as well as its versatility with small batches, it doesn’t make much sense given our production. We spin up to six quarts of a dozen ice creams and sorbets everyday. But I do think each has its place in any kitchen.
Earlier this year I was able to replace the batch freezer that dated back to Payard’s stint at Le Bernardin, which is surely a testament to their durability!
TN: Combi-ovens or induction burners?
If so, how are the Combi-Ovens helping you improve your products?
(Personally, when I used the Rational I really liked how you could just turn them on and 5 minutes later you’re baking. I really liked the way crème brulees etc. baked in them)
I sometimes joke that we’re working with the finest of 1985’s technology! That means one convection oven and a four burner range in terms of major hardware. I do however like the precision and portability of induction burners; it actually took me a long time to get used to open flame after working on them for five years.
TN: Sous vide equipment?
That is one thing I miss. I did a lot of cooking with the Cryovac, but what I liked most was bagging ingredients and components for super efficient storage and organization. And when you travel and ship food on a regular basis, it’s the only way to go.
TN: Do you have any fave chocolate or other items you prefer?
I pretty much stick with what I know and have used for years, but I do like to work with and showcase smaller chocolate producers from time to time. I was an early supporter of Plantations, if anything, because I thought it was an important venture in terms of their social and economic aims.
I’ve recently begun working with the Italian producer Amadei, which is a bit prohibitive due to its price and limited production, but their stuff is amazing!
On the whole, whether it’s organic hazelnuts, freeze dried corn, or smoked cinnamon, there are more and more ingredients and sources for them than ever. It’s a very fun part of the job looking for them!
TN: Any “industrial” products like Gellen, maltrodextrin, lecethin, etc. that are finding their way onto your plates? On a side note, I remember a (coconut?) dish you did that had a very foamy emulsion sauce as a component and years later thought “LECITHIN!!!” Was I correct?
I began sorting through a lot of these ingredients a year or two ago, and most have found their way into a dish here and there since then. But there is still so much to learn! For the most part, my approach is to familiarize myself with the function and properties of an ingredient and then wait for the right opportunity when it becomes the solution to a particular problem. I try to resist building a dish just for the sake of using something new. There is also the factor of practicality; alginate spherification, as an example, is a great tool to have in your arsenal, but it’s not practical to execute in a busy service.
I’ve been quite interested in expanding my knowledge of pectins and agar in particular, but gellan, maltodextrin, locust bean gum, xanthan, lecithin (you are probably right on that one, Ted) are all in limited daily use. As I mentioned earlier, I prefer restraint with most of this stuff and resist the idea of it becoming a base for a ‘style’ of cuisine!
TN: Eric Ripert ( Executive chef and co owner of Le Bernardin) has been doing various consulting gigs in the US and abroad. You’re helping on those projects too, yes?
Since I joined Le Bernardin over three years ago, I’ve worked on eight different projects of varying intensity and concepts. We’ve had both high profile and ‘under the radar’ gigs here in the city, as well as jobs stretching from Miami to southern California. Our most intensive focus is Chef Ripert’s ongoing relationship with the Ritz Carlton, which began with their opening in Grand Cayman and continues with a new Restaurant in Washington DC and planned openings elsewhere in the near future.
Even if I feel I maintain two or three full time jobs, these projects have been a great exercise in versatility. I do feel that my bosses, Chef Ripert and Maguy LeCoze, have been very smart and influential in the way they’ve structured the consulting arm, rather than expanding and diluting the Le Bernardin brand.
Most exciting for me have been the ongoing projects I’m involved with in Japan. Somewhat separated from the restaurant, I and others here in New York have consulted for several pastry shops in varying capacities for a couple of years now. It’s been a really amazing experience so far!
TN: Do you get to possibly stretch out a bit more for a restaurant in the Cayman Islands, with the kind of local influences & product they have there?
Every project presents not only challenges, but also certain freedoms. And almost all require some research and development due to location or concept. With Cayman in particular, there is an interesting amount of unique and indigenous product, and that of course influences the menu. Specifically, there are amazingly sweet local bananas, an interesting variety of ‘water apple’, and wild herbs unlike anything we’re familiar with on the mainland. Nutmeg and rum, of course, are important historically and economically in the region as well. Because we use the Pacojet there, sorbets in particular a great vehicle for showcasing many of the local fruits. On the flipside, it is sometimes the basic stuff that comes from outside of the island that can prove unreliable and frustrating! But for sure, everything comes into play when we put our menus together. To use Cayman as example once again, not only are location and seasonality important, but being located within a hotel is also a factor. Indeed, what we will offer in a casual poolside restaurant will differ greatly than what you will find at the fine dining, white tablecloth outlet.
TN: Are there any books from the last year that are turning you on?
There have been so many that I honestly don’t get much of a chance to spend serious time with most of them. And I still get a majority of my information and inspiration in small bites from magazines like Apicius or Art Culinaire, but most often from various sources on the internet. Books dealing with chocolate, especially those from Andrew Shotts, Jean Pierre Wybauw, and Peter Greweling have filled a very important knowledge gap. I haven’t seen much of Ramon Morato’s new book, but I look forward to attending a demo of his here in New York soon. And surely Torreblanca’s output, as well as Fredric Robert’s book, will remain important references. The last major acquisition of mine was Hermé’s PH 10; I still think he is the standard bearer worldwide, not only embracing the ‘new’, but also perfecting the ‘old’. And reinforcing his role as an innovator, I’m eagerly anticipating Grant Achatz’s forthcoming Alinea book.
TN: Chefs that are turning you on, at home or abroad?
By mentioning one, I’d be forgetting many! Johnny Iuzzini is most definitely still at the top of his game. I’ve recently enjoyed the work of Dominique Ansel at Daniel. I’m excited to see what Sam Mason will do now that Tailor is off the ground. As far as the cutting edge, few can touch Alex Stupak. No doubt, Will Goldfarb will again raise the bar on his next venture. I have always had a ton of respect for Bill Yosses, who surprised many when he moved into the White House position. I always look forward to seeing what Aki Kamozawa and Alex Talbot are up to over at Ideas In Food. Not only do I miss what both Paul Liebrandt and pastry chef Nick Morgenstern were doing at Gilt, I’m anticipating their next projects. Bill Corbett, recently at Anthos is one to watch as well. And then there are the dozens of great, not-so-famous pastry chefs that I’ve gotten to know that we’ll surely be hearing about in the future!
TN: After working in New York for a few years now are there any insights you’ve had to add to the “Laiskonis Manifesto” you so graciously let us post on PastryPros.com?
Manifesto? That makes it sound so… serious! All kidding aside, I do love what I do, and it has been gratifying to know that sharing my own experience may have helped others. I think if I had to add anything, it would be just that, the importance of sharing information and community building. Whether it’s as simple as the exchange of techniques, ideas, or recipes, or inspiring excitement and mentoring in general, that’s really how things move forward. And that is how we improve ourselves. None of us would be anywhere without the generosity and guidance of others, so I think it is important to keep that spirit alive both among your staff and co-workers as well as the pastry community at large.
TN: Any idea what you would like to be doing say, Five years from now?
You know, it’s hard to answer that, because in so many ways, I’m still living out my dream! It’s also been difficult to create such new goals, because the options for pastry chefs have certainly expanded over time. Consulting, ownership, research and development, writing a book, moving to the middle of nowhere and making bread… it’s all appealing to me, as is maintaining a successful restaurant pastry kitchen. Because of, and perhaps in spite of, whatever recognition and media buzz have come my way, I definitely feel more confident in creating mostly personal goals- still working to perfect things on a day-to-day basis. It’s that pursuit that is sometimes the hardest, but certainly the most important and rewarding, to achieve.
TN: Michael, we can’t thank you enough for the time taken and for being a pal here.
Thank you and continued Good Luck!!!
Thank you! It’s been great fun!
You can visit Micael at michael-laiskonis.com
TN – Ted Niceley
photo courtesy Michael Laiskonis
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